Best Friends Blog
 

The no-kill deniers

Every year, with the seasonal regularity of the swallows returning to Capistrano, when the state of Virginia publishes its annual report on Virginia animal shelter statistics, there is a flock of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) critics who decry the well-known and non-news fact that PETA kills around 90% of the animals that they take into their state-licensed “shelter.” Most people are shocked when they first encounter this jarring statistic, but PETA and founder Ingrid Newkirk are unabashed in their assertion that killing shelter pets – regardless of their potential for re-homing or rehabilitation – is a virtue, not a vice.

It seems that PETA actually relishes the annual fight because it usually garners them rebuttal space in one or another media outlet to defend their actions and to bash no-kill. This year’s cycle began in April and has continued in sporadic bursts that eventually made it to coverage in the New York Times and most recently in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.

In a piece published yesterday in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, titled “No-kill is no answer,” Ingrid Newkirk recycles a series of falsehoods that suggest she has not been paying attention to the no-kill movement – the most dynamic revolution in social change and animal welfare since she herself brought the plight of farm, fur and laboratory animals to national attention three decades ago. Regardless of whether by design or out of ignorance, the key points of Ms. Newkirk’s rant against the no-kill movement are just wrong as a matter of fact and demonstrable results.

So, let me set the record straight:

  1. No-kill means achieving a community-wide status where animals are not killed as a method of population control or to make space for other animals. Rather the number of animals entering a given system is reduced through economically targeted free and low-cost spay/neuter services, shelter surrender intervention programs, adoption follow-up programs, and progressive community cat programs. At the same time, the number of animals leaving the system is maximized through high-volume adoption strategies, collaboration with rescue partners, and the transfer of animals to agencies in communities with a complementary high demand for the types of animals likely to be killed in the system – for example, small dogs from Southern California shelters who are snapped up in other cities where small dogs are not common in shelters or rescues and are otherwise only available from breeders or pet stores. The idea that there simply aren’t enough homes for them all is outdated. According to Maddie’s Fund, 17 million Americans who want to adopt a companion animal into their home each year are undecided about where their next pet will come from. With an estimated 4 million animals dying in shelters, the math is pretty simple: If just a fraction of those 17 million could easily access and chose to adopt a shelter pet, the nation would indeed be no-kill.
  2. A no-kill community must include the open-admission municipal shelter(s). And, while there may be any number of small or large limited-admission shelters, their collective responsibility is to help ensure that the community’s open-admission shelter has the resources and partners to not resort to killing for space. Many open-admission shelters support no-kill and commit to working collaboratively with others in the community in order to achieve it.
  3. No-kill does not mean that animals who are irremediably suffering from injury, disease or age-related infirmities are denied the deliverance of legitimately employed euthanasia. The same applies for animals who are too dangerously aggressive to be safely adopted to the public and for which no safe and humane management option exists.
  4. No-kill does not foster hoarding. Hoarding is a mental disorder that pre-dates the no-kill movement. Perhaps one contributing factor to hoarding is the carnage that takes place in high-kill shelters that motivates individuals with a hoarding mentality to gather up as many animals as possible rather than see them killed in a shelter.

But, of course, PETA is fully cognizant of this. After all, there is a prime example of no-kill success just 170 miles up the I-64 from PETA’s Norfolk, Virginia, headquarters in Charlottesville, where the Charlottesville-Albemarle SPCA has led that community to no-kill and sustained it over a period of years. And they are not alone. Over 100 communities across the country, including 10 here in Utah, are no-kill. Reno, Nevada, along with the entirety of Washoe County, Nevada, has achieved no-kill. Salt Lake County Animal Services and many other U.S. communities are on the brink. Austin, Texas, is no-kill, and Los Angeles is on track to realize that vision within the next few years. The viability of no-kill was demonstrated conclusively 20 years ago in San Francisco under the leadership of Rich Avanzino. These are just a few examples.

No-kill is real, and it works. Why PETA persists in this denial is fodder for an organizational psychologist. I won’t speculate, however. PETA’s misrepresentations needed to be addressed.

Francis Battista
Co-founder
Best Friends Animal Society

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  • Anonymous

    Thank you everyone for your input and for engaging in this discussion. At this time, we feel the comments thread for this post is no longer constructive and we will be shutting down comments. Thank you again for your participation.

    Sincerely,

    Melissa Miller
    New Media Coordinator

  • sittingbulll

    The moderator also removed my post about specific actions that PETA takes to provide direct assistance to animals – housing, medical care, transport, fencing, spay/neuter, etc. Why?

    • MelissaLMiller

      Your post included profanity, which is stated in our comment guidelines as something we will not tolerate. You can read the full policy here: http://blogs.bestfriends.org/index.php/comment-policy/. We fully believe in a healthy discussion, but comments that do not follow our policy will be deleted.

      Best,
      Melissa Miller
      New Media Coordinator

      • Anonymous

        My apologies. I will edit and repost.

  • sittingbulll

    Why is the moderator deleting comments posted in support of PETA? It seems only fair that if you accept comments, you should accept them from both sides of the issue. Many positive facts about PETA have been omitted from the article above and should be mentioned, if not by you, then by others. That way a more complete, fair, balanced picture can be presented. From what I know of Best Friends, you should support this type of exchange.

    • Anonymous

      The moderator is deleting the comments that amount to nothing more than juvenile taunts coming from Julieveggie. She has behaved like a two year old throughout this discussion and if I were a moderator, I’d ban her. But I’m not, so carry on.

    • MelissaLMiller

      Only comments not following our commenting policy have been deleted. We believe a healthy discussion is important, but comments that do not follow the guidelines will not be tolerated. You can read the policy in its entirety here: http://blogs.bestfriends.org/index.php/comment-policy/

      Sincerely,
      Melissa Miller
      New Media Coordinator

      • Anonymous

        You need to remove the 2 posts where Anonymous is personally attacking me by calling me juvenile and behaving like a 2 year old child.

        • Anonymous

          Why do you act like this? You could have politely asked to have the ‘offending’ comments removed instead of demanding that the comments be removed.

        • MelissaLMiller

          Hi Julie,

          Those comments have been removed, as have some of your comments that personally attack other commenters. Again, while we believe in the importance of a healthy discourse, comments that violate our policy will be removed, and repeat violators will be banned from further commenting. While we may not see eye to eye on things, we appreciate your opinion and hope you will respect the blog by only posting comments within our guidelines moving forward.

          Sincerely,
          Melissa Miller
          New Meda Coordinator

      • sittingbulll

        I will repost. I believe it was deleted in error. Thank you

  • del_jake

    We’ve seen the nightmare of No-Kill in Delaware. One of Best Friends partners Safe Haven Animal Sanctuary is in the process of scrambling to get dogs out the door as we speak before they shut down on 8/30 due to lack of funds because they spent their money doing expensive treatment and warehousing dogs at various kennels. The kennels are about to ship animals back to Safe Haven any day now and they are in a rush to get tarps to keep doors outdoors for the next month.

    No-Kill is not pretty in our eyes. August in Delaware is extremely hot, brutal thunderstorms at times, and just 2 years ago we were faced with Hurricane Irene, so there is nothing humane about the conditions these dogs will be faced with. And there have been numerous reports that many of their dogs are aggressive, so you can just imagine how desperate group housing will be with so many aggressive dogs. The emotional push to end euthanasia without lowering the overpopulation is creating nightmare scenarios like this in far too many places.

    Safe Haven’s FB page
    Safe Haven is announcing a tentative closing date of August 30. The final closure date is dependent upon when we are able to find adoptive homes or other suitable shelters to transfer our animals to. We are very grateful to the Best Friends Animal Society No More Homeless Pets Network for their assistance in helping us to locate other shelters. If you can help by adopting, transporting, or volunteering at the Sanctuary, please email us at info(at)safehavende(dot)org. If you are a no-kill shelter or rescue group, please email cindy(at)safehavende(dot)org.

    No-Kill Delaware (removed some names from post)
    No-Kill Delaware Yes, rescues, forsters and adopters are essential. I am too controversial. Money is needed immediately needed for tarps for the dogs living outside. I doubt they can get enough tarps donated fast enough for the outside dogs. Also for vets. From what I hear, there are vets who won’t take Safe Haven animals now because of concerns about payment or they want upfront payment. Since the dog contract is still on, there are sure to be dogs coming in who need vet care. And then there’s spay/neuter needed for animals to be adopted – required by law. I don’t even know if they have food. As I recall, the Cape Gazette reported that dog control contract pays for half of the costs.”

    • Anonymous

      So, in your opinion the lives of 3-4 million shelter animals amount to nothing more than a dollar and cents issue? If it costs too much to save them all, then they must die? Is that right? Please clarify.

      • del_jake

        No, I’m saying bankrupt shelters can’t save animals at all.

        Search Healdsburg Animal Shelter and you will see another shelter that helped animals for 50 years has recently shut down as well after becoming No-Kill just 3 years ago. Who will help those animals going forward?

        And is keeping aggressive dogs alive where they have attacked other shelter dogs repeatedly really more humane? I don’t imagine the people or the dogs bitten think so.

        • Anonymous

          “Who will help those animals going forward?” PETA has a lot of money at their disposal, why doesn’t PETA help them? What is PETA doing to help the animals you are referring to?
          And I have yet to see anyone here that is advocating keeping aggressive dogs alive at any and all costs, as you are implying. So why are you bringing that up? It is not relevant to the discussion.

          • del_jake

            Best Friends has even more money at their disposal and chose to partner with an organization that already had a questionable past with animals that were wasting away and emaciated in kennels. So why are you asking PETA to clean up this Best Friends partners mess?

          • Anonymous

            If Best Friends is able to help with the situation then it is fair to ask them for help. I have no problem with that.

  • MelissaLMiller

    All – a friendly reminder that comments not following our commenting policy will be deleted. While we want our readers to be able to engage in a healthy discussion, comments attacking others will not be tolerated. You can read our policy in its entirety here: http://blogs.bestfriends.org/index.php/comment-policy/.

    Best,
    Melissa Miller
    New Media Coordinator

  • Anonymous

    Best Friends why did you delete my fair question. I’m really disappointed. Are there enough homes for the 70 million strays in America that are fending for themselves?

    • Anonymous

      If the “70 million strays” you are referring to are feral cats then the answer is “TNR” not death at the hands of PETA or animal control. For more info please look up Alley Cat Allies.

      • Anonymous

        This number includes tame cats & dogs. In Huston Tx there are over a million dogs fending for themselves on the street.

        • Anonymous

          Source please

          • Anonymous

            I would love to but this blog doesn’t allow links. Have you heard of google?

          • Anonymous

            You can refer me to a source for your figures by providing me with a name of a web site and not an actual hyperlink. I am most familiar with Google yet I am unable to find an independent, credible source to back up your claims.

          • Anon

            It’s not their job to try and back up YOUR claim.

          • Anonymous

            She must be thinking up another excuse why she is unable to provide a source (any source) for her outrageous claims. I wouldn’t be surprised if her next response involves sticking out her tongue and stating, “Because I say so, that’s why”.

        • Anonymous

          I am still waiting for you to provide me with a credible, independent source for your claim that “70 million strays” exist. Seeing that you have mentioned this so called “fact” at least half a dozen times in this comment section, I would think it would be fairly easy for you to provide us all with the source of this information so we can move the discussion forward.

  • Anonymous

    BEST FRIENDS are there enough homes for the 70 million strays in America that are fending for themselves?

  • HSWC Good Buddy

    I volunteer at an open admission shelter and through community support, a strong foster program, a dog enrichment program we call the “Good Buddy Program,” and a positive working relationship with several area rescues, our live release rate for dogs is currently 98%. We have been over 90% for nearly a year, and we are going to continue to move forward. This puts us in the category of “no kill” for open admission shelters. The shelter I speak of is the Humane Society of Warren County in Front Royal, Virginia.

  • Sheryl G

    I was a member of PETA until they advocated for the killing all of the Michael Vick Pitbull victims rather than have each dog’s temperament individually assessed, save those that could be saved (which ended up being nearly all of the dogs), and find them appropriate homes. Now I have another reason to never, ever be a part of PETA again. No kill IS achievable and in my community in Southern California we are working hard at it and very close to achieving it in some of our shelters. I think that the real aim of PETA is to do away with pet companions completely. What a cold world it would be without my companion dogs and cat. PETA proclaims a culture of life for animals but I believe that their true aim is more in line with the culture of death.

    • Julieveggie

      I know it seems sad without a world of companion animals but breeding animals for human pleasure or use is a form of exploitation.

      • Anonymous

        And killing animals that are already here is a form of abuse. And raising millions of $$ in donations by pretending to advocate for those animals is at best unethical and at worst, possibly criminal.

  • Anonymous

    Nathan Winograd & his supporters kill shelter pets by denying pet overpopulation & help breeders stay in business. Best Friends did a survey and found out almost 50 % of people rather get their pet from a breeder.The truth is: 3-4 million animals are killed at shelters a year. The majority animals killed at shelters are the hardest to place. 2.3 million adult cats & 800,000 pit bull type dogs are killed a year. We have an overpopulation of adult cats & pit bull type dogs and you can’t force the public to adopt these animals. People want puppies & kittens and in two years many will be dumped at shelters. It’s estimated there are over 70 million strays, mostly cats. We need to spay and neuter and limit breeding for no kill to work for all animals. He doesn’t factor this number into his math equation either: In ONE DAY & EVERYDAY over 733,000 puppies are advertised online by breeders. It’s very hard for middle-aged to senior cats and pit-bull type dogs to compete with those odds stacked against them.

    • Anonymous

      Overpopulation does not excuse the killing of a healthy, treatable animal any more than it would excuse the killing of humans for the same reason. And since PETA believes that, “a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy” I guess that all of the killing done by PETA and other kill shelters would qualify as genocide, right?

      • dazedcat

        I am curious what your solution is for the 40 million cats and dogs that have been euthanized over the last 10 years or so would be? Where would they be now if they had been saved but without a home and who would be caring for them? Specifics, not generalities. Who is paying and who is caring for these animals? Not accepting an excuse is fine, but having a solution is better and necessary and without it, an opinion has no value. Now, maybe 10 million would have died of old age anyhow, so that is a start. Are there warehouses and money enough for this? If there is, we should contact these people and resources immediately. And are all these animals to be given all the medical care they need to fight any and all life threatening diseases that crop up? If we have someone or ones who are willing to step up and do this I wish they would speak up and make themselves known. Are they to be left running on the street where non animal lovers will revolt and have them killed anyway? We have a huge part of the population who would revolt if .8 million pit bulls were left to run on the street year after year and 2.3 million more cats year after year.

        • Anonymous

          Please see my reply to this question below. I don’t feel like typing it all out again.

          I believe, if you truly love animals, you would be more inclined to focus on ways to save them rather than excuses as to why you must kill them.

          Call me crazy but at least I am consistent. Calling oneself an “animal advocate” and then defending the needless killing are incompatible positions to hold. It’s actually, behaving exactly like a hypocrite.

          • dazedcat

            Okay, I guess you mean “For more info please look up Alley Cat Allies.” :/

            In the meantime you have no solution for the dogs.

            I believe spay and neuter is the solution and if it means publically funded mandatory spay and neuter, go for it.

            Talking about solutions is not excusing why shelters kill. Talking about the realities of overpopulation is not excusing why shelters kill.

          • Anonymous

            So why then does PETA only use a small fraction of their (over) $30 million operating budget on spay/neuter campaigns? The same goes for any other animal welfare organization who takes in millions every year and yet provides only a token amount of free/subsidized spay and neuter.

          • dazedcat

            Could not agree more; and I feel the same way about No Kill groups unfortunately. They are all about blaming others and not spending efforts on spay and neuter. New Hampshire focused on spay and neuter (quietly) 20 years ago and now all of their shelters are open admission AND do not euthanize for space. They do not care to associate with the NK movement for their own reasons.
            Yes, spay and neuter are one of the steps in the NKE, but until recently it was not the number one step. I believe some of the criticism directed towards NK vis-a-vis this has made a difference and there is recently more emphasis, but it is couched in such terms [parapharsed] ‘so even lazy shelter directors’ can do it’ [create a no kill shelter]. Nathan Winograd said in an Animal Wise radio interview many months back that spay/neuter “may” help. There is no “may” about it. It is the number one thing that has to be done.

            I do not know specifically about the big organizations budgets however to comment specifically about how much they spend on spay/neuter. I believe the ASPCA does in grants and their mobile spay/neuter vehicle, but it is not enough in my perception. But that is my perception only, and I do not know the facts.

          • Anonymous

            I am inclined to agree that not enough resources are being spent by the major animal welfare orgs for spay and neuter. Why do you think that is?

          • dazedcat

            I do not know. I do know I was very upset with the millions that was spent suing the Ringling Bros by the ASPCA and some other organizations. I understood them doing that, but they had such a weak case esp. in their chief witness, and then they lost and got counter-sued and the ASPCA wound up paying $9.3 million to settle to avoid a prolonged abuse litigation. How much good all of that money could have done?

            The answer may be that spay/neuter is not newsworthy enough, glamorous enough. I think the public has to demand it when they donate money. I am pretty jaded about most organizations except local rescues. Even Best Friends spends an awful lot on each animal in its care. As the poster above said about what they spend on each animal; no local organization without a national donor base can afford to spend that.

            del_jake said: “If you look at Best Friends 2011 financial statement on Guidestar, you’ll see that they spent $19,860,444 on animal care activities and noted that there are about 1700 animals being cared for at any given time. That amounts to $11,682 per animal.”

          • dazedcat

            There are human beings living on less than $11,682 a year in the United States today. I know one personally.

          • Anonymous

            I personally believe that these charities need homeless animals to continue to be an issue in order to perpetuate their very existence. If the “problem” was ever solved, the donations might drop off substantially. That is the only logical explanation I have been able to come up with.

            I also agree that the money wasted on the Ringling Bros debacle could have been used elsewhere and provided for a lot of animals in need.

          • Anon

            and makes a revenue of what $600,000…. that doesn’t sound very free or low cost to me.

  • FixSanFrancisco

    THANK YOU Francis for this important blog post and further defense of No Kill.

  • macbradphoto

    I would also respectfully add to this laws that have serious repercussions for puppy mills and back yard breeders as a way to help with animal population control.

    • Susan Willard

      Be careful, macbradphoto. Ryan Clinton the heir apparent to Winograd has stated that his problem with puppy mills is lack of strict regulation. One doesn’t want to get on the bad side of NK leadership. Best Friends is supporting a breeder and animal industry supported shelter reform movement, i.e. Winograd’s No Kill. Why are so called animal activists using the animal industry funded attack campaign in a sorry attempt to damage PETA? Shame on Best Friends.

  • del_jake

    The fact that the “No-Kill” movement denies the financial reality that shelters will go bankrupt and city budgets will be destroyed when the underlying pet overpopulation is not addressed. I used to believe that Best Friends backed programs like Peter Marsh’s targeted spay neuter program in past articles, but it appears that your organization has chosen to switch gears and support the same unsustainable path as Nathan Winograd. Animal welfare will take more steps backward then forward if people don’t take the financial blinders off and realize that bankrupting shelters and leaving animals on the streets is not a solution. PETA should be concerned about “No-Kill”, because bankrupt shelters can’t help animals.

    Austin Animal Services – Austin’s Budget
    2008-09 $ 5,397,428
    2009-10 $ 6,008,659
    2010-11 $ 6,883,679
    2011-12 $ 7,612,186
    2012-13 $ 8.2 million
    2013-14 $ 8.9 million proposed ($714,000 increase from Unmet Needs Report)

    RENO/WASHOE
    And Nevada Humane can only continue to remain a viable entity for another 5-6 years based on the the losses they’ve sustained since the no-kill effort began.
    Washoe/NHS – Intake 15,000.
    2005 Combined Expenses – $5,347,996.
    2010 Combined Expenses – $7,816,195.
    Note – Nevada Humane has lost nearly $4.1 million since no-kill began.

    Nevada Humane
    $4.1 Million in Deficits Since No-Kill Effort Began 2006
    2004 403,343.00
    2005 2,168,793.00
    2006 (1,000,367.00)
    2007 (855,614.00)
    2008 (237,365.00)
    2009 (1,000,164.00)
    2010 (293,971.00)
    2011 (749,016.00)

    Targeted spay neuter cost New Hampshire only around $300,000 per year, now imports dogs because of it’s success, and hasn’t bankrupted the taxpayers or shelters in the process. Whereas “No-Kill’s” Delaware CAPA has merely caused chaos, shelter financial losses, and endangered animals.

  • Anonymous

    If “No-Kill” were working, its proponents wouldn’t need to rely on using the Center for Consumer Freedom’s disinformation campaign to mitigate PETA’s opposition to “No-Kill” initiatives.

    First of all, PETA isn’t a traditional “catch-all” animals shelter, do it’s not really fair to perpetually compare them to one, and secondly, PETA’s reasons for opposing the “No-Kill” movement have merit. “No-Kill” shelters ARE turning animals away, and shelter over-crowding and rescue hoarding occurs at a significant rate.

    I have to tell you. Whenever I see someone resorting to the “PETA Kills Animals” disinformation engine to get them where they want to go, everything they say becomes immediately suspect to me. Especially when I can look at Best Friends’ IRS 990’s and see that their total revenue exceeds PETA’s total revenue (of about $30,000,000) by about TWENTY MILLION DOLLARS! I mean, how are other shelters supposed to compete with that?

    It’s time to get honest, Best Friends.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Camilles-Rescue-Page/100002032418100 Camille’s Rescue Page

      More proof PETA KILLS:

      • Anonymous

        That PETA euthanizes has never been in question. This photo is not proof, however. Waste of a post.

        • Kitty

          Why are you so hot to defend PETA?

          • Anonymous

            My guess is that she believes, as PETA does, that the idea of having pets is wrong and she wants to put an end to domesticated animals. But like PETA, she lies to hide her true intentions.

          • Anonymous

            Because I see all of the hands on work they do rescuing animals, proving housing and fencing, investigating cruelty, spaying/neutering, transporting animals from shelters or to the vet, medical care, passing legislation – all to help animals, and typically at no cost to their owner. Because they work world-wide to improve the lives of all animals regardless of species – not just dogs and cats. Because I’ve seen first-hand many of the wonderful things they do. That’s why.

          • Anonymous

            “Because I see all of the hands on work they do rescuing animals, proving
            housing and fencing, investigating cruelty, spaying/neutering,
            transporting animals from shelters or to the vet, medical care, passing
            legislation – all to help animals, and typically at no cost to their
            owner”

            Where are you seeing this? Their 990 says otherwise. Are they lying on their 990?

          • sittingbulll

            I see it because I’ve gotten off my ass and talked with them, offered to help. They have a nation-wide network of volunteers that transport animals that need assistance – for sheltering, medical care, etc. i’ve transported animals to shelters and veterinarians for medical care at peta’s request -and at their expense. I’ve seen it when I volunteered with national and local orgs providing care for animals that were saved from hoarding and abuse as a result of PETA investigations. I’ve personally seen them provide fences, dog houses and bedding for dogs that are chained or have no shelter. They provide help in all states, regardless of species. But you just keep sitting at your computer, reading the same old tired stories, looking at at 990 with numbers on it. Don’t bother to talk to them or get involved. It’s a real shame. You’ve no idea all the things PETA does to help animals.

          • Anonymous

            Wow, that’s funny. I too volunteer with countless other people providing transport, assistance and medical care to animals in need and I have yet to meet one single person who has ever received a dimes worth of help from PETA.

            I’m afraid, as we are both anonymous commentators, that we will never know what the truth is without actual proof that can be verified by independent sources. Right?

            So, if you have such proof, please provide it, as it will be beneficial to this discussion.

          • Anonymous

            You’ve not shared the names of your organizations. PETA has done many, many investigations / all published. The most recent large scale one I was involved with was Caboodle Ranch. 650 cats were rescued.

          • Anonymous

            I have a serious problem with PETA’s investigation at Caboodle. For one, why did the PETA volunteer allow an animal (even one) to suffer needlessly for weeks without intervening? This is simply inexcusable in my book. If I witness an animal that needs medical attention, my first thought is not to sit back and video tape weeks of suffering in order to gather information or evidence. My first response would be to get the animal the medical treatment he needs. Again, allowing an animal to suffer needlessly, while you have the power to intervene and stop said suffering is incompatible with the underlying animal rights philosophy.

            Another reason I suspect that the Caboodle Ranch raid was not so much about helping the animals is because of the timing of the raid, which conveniently happened at exactly the same time that CAPA like legislation was scheduled to be voted on. Legislation that, if passed, would have saved countless shelter animals lives. Something PETA quite obviously has no interest in doing.

          • Anonymous

            You obviously have no direct knowledge of this case or you would not have made such ridiculous comments. I’d like to explain it, but it is likely wasted here. Your ‘first response’ is why you are not in the business of conducting animal cruelty investigations. Save one, but forfeit the lives of more than 600 others. And yes, I know this by the nature of your post above. Very briefly, the investigation needed to take place for years. Local authorities would not step in. PETA was the only group that would. It took the amount of time that it did to collect sufficient evidence to act/prosecute. Offers of assistance were made to CR for years, and declined. Regarding the Legislation, it died in committee due to procedural errors in the construction of the legislation long before the raid. You may verify this at fl.house.gov. CAPA had nothing to do with it. Copies of evidence, photos, and trial testimony are available at caboodleranch.net. Grant, the owner, pled guilty.

          • Anon

            Does that include the one investigation in Germany? The one were it was found in a German court of law that PeTA PAYED people to skin animals alive so they could video tape it? And the guys stated that they didn’t know why they wanted the animals skinned that way, but they needed the money?

          • Anonymous

            OMG, do you have a source for this story Anon? I have not heard of it before.

          • Anon

            I’ll add it to my blog shall I Anonymous? I have three sources and some court documentation.

          • sittingbulll

            Paid. No, it doesnt. I have no knowledge of that. Do you have proof of that? I am referring to the hundreds of undercover investigations conducted in the US. The original court documentation in German please, to be sure nothing is lost in translation or misunderstood.

          • Anon

            Enough to satisfy my own opinion that it is true. Without learning to read German and translating it all myself.

          • Anonymous

            I was asking for proof for the rest of us, so we know it is true and not another baseless rumor. English would do, but a link to the German is best (for clarity). You don’t need to learn German – I can. Typically news stories have links to their original sources, assuming there is one. Given what I know of animal treatment in Germany, the story is very suspect.

          • Anon

            Try google, its not that hard to find.

          • Anonymous

            Yes, don’t do her homework for her!

          • sittingbulll

            So no proof, just spreading rumor again. Thanks.

          • Anonymous

            Alleged incident took place in another country. German court tried the case – no evidence presented, only the testimony othe the animal skinner? Well, of course I believe someone who skins animals alive. Now you read it.

      • Kitty

        OMG! They could have been spayed and neutered and returned to their “homes” wherever that was. Slaughtering them is not the answer. How coldblooded can people be?

        • sittingbulll

          OMG! You could look into this and see that they are mostly owner requested euthanasias. Stop spouting nonsense and look to see what PETA does and why. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

          • Terri

            Wrong sittingbull. THAT information is not available. I keep saying that all PeTA has to do to quell the debate is to ante up – show intake reports on the animals surrendered to them and their conditions. Any personal identifying information of the people who surrender in the files can be redacted.

          • sittingbulll

            Of course it is. Call PETA and ask. They are happy to share it with you. Their phone number is on their website.

          • Terri

            Written/photocopied Proof – not a phone call where they can do their usual lying. It’s called transparency

          • Anonymous

            Sounds like nothing will please you. If you call, they will likely provide that to you. But you won’t know unless you ask. Until then…

          • Terri

            written/photocopied documents are the only way to prove what they say is true. Perhaps we will just have to wait for “discovery” to actually see the proof.

          • Anonymous

            Even those can be faked easily enough I’m afraid.

    • CJ O

      This ridiculous claim that No Kill people are in cahoots with Consumer Freedom’s is getting really old.. Whether or not there is some ridiculous connection does not change the fact that PETA’s own records indicate they KILL animals. I have been in discussions with PETA employees that tell me they KILL animals. It doesn’t matter the background, the connection or the reason why No Kill believer believe in No Kill.. The point is they believe these animals deserve LIFE!

      • http://burningbird.net Shelley Powers

        Because it is true. You may not like it. It may not satisfy the No Kill cult-like mentality, but it is true.

        All of the folks may not be deliberately working with CCF, but they are helping CCF. And that’s something _no_ animal welfare person should want.

      • Anonymous

        They do – but the ‘No Kill’ folks aren’t able to provide them the lives they deserve. There are not enough homes for them all, no matter how you spin it

        • CJ O

          So you have done all the research necessary to know without a doubt there aren’t enough homes..Because Maddie’s fund seems to say differently. And I’m not sure how No Kill can’t give them lives they deserve? No Kill gives them more than 3-7 days in a cage by using foster care! Some shelters do transports to places that actually run low on dogs.. Your beloved PETA even transfers out a miniscule amount of animals.

          • Anonymous

            Reading, again. PeTA is not a shelter. Have you done the research? I love Maddies Fund, but there are no enough homes. Clearly you seem to think there are, despite all of the overflowing shelters, strays, and ferals. No places run low on animals needing homes. Do your shelters transfer animals out? One example – Miami transports to Maryland -ask the overflowing Maryland shelters how this works out. If Maryland were short of animals, why do they have to euthanize for space? You won’t like their answers. Since your shelter is at 98% you must have solved the problem. How about we all send our homeless animals up to you to adopt out? Sounds like a plan to me.

          • Anonymous

            Actually, I think I recently read a blog written by Ingrid Newkirk stating that PETA is indeed a “shelter” where animals are able to lounge on comfy sofas while they await adoption.

            So, are you stating that you know PETA better than Ingrid knows her own organization?
            This is one reason why no one believes anything coming from a PETA follower or Ingrid herself.
            Please enlighten us all, is PETA a shelter or not? And might I recommend that all of you PETA fans get together with Ingrid and the rest of the PETA employees and come up with a consistent answer to that query. Currently you all look like lying fools who contradict one another and the president of the organization, that you try so hard to protect.

        • Kitty

          It sounds like you’re just repeating PETA propaganda.

    • Anonymous

      Best Friends doesn’t kill….they give the animals the rehabilitation they need, adopt them out if possible, provide vet services for the many that cannot be adopted out and care for them for life. PETA takes them in and Kills them Period!

      • http://burningbird.net Shelley Powers

        Best Friends doesn’t take in all unwanted cats and dogs, does it?

        • Anonymous

          No, they do not.

        • Jean_B

          No they don’t, but they don’t kill the ones they do take in. PETA will take any at the VA shelter and kill them. They don’t even try to save them….to listen to them you’d think they get enjoyment from killing them. They are so very proud of their stance.

          • http://burningbird.net Shelley Powers

            That’s the point: they don’t take in _all_ unwanted cats and dogs. They pretend there’s not a problem with _all_ the unwanted cats and dogs. They’re closing their ears, their eyes, and especially their minds, refusing to acknowledge we have severe problems, and sometimes we have tough choices.

          • Anonymous

            So, can you actually provide us all with PETA’s solution to the problem? I’m all ears and anxiously awaiting your response. Thank you in advance.

          • Julieveggie

            Austin Animal Center/Austin Pets Alive that are part of the no-kill equation had to stop in taking cats and started to euthanizied healthy animals for space.

          • Anonymous

            That is NOT what I asked you Julieveggie. I find it very difficult to have an intelligent conversation with you when you refuse to answer the questions I pose and attempt to divert the subject to something else entirely.
            Let me again ask you, What is PETA’s solution to the problem of “overpopulation” ?

          • Anon

            I KNOW! I KNOW! Kill kill kill… until there are no more domesticated animals left.

          • MelissaLMiller

            Actually, Julie, that is not correct and not the full picture. The Austin Animal Center, which is the city’s open admission shelter, along with its two biggest rescue partners, Austin Pets Alive! and the Austin Humane Society, teamed up this weekend to host a joint adoption event for cats. The three organizations were seeing quite a few cats come in and simply needed to make space for intake. They reached out to the public to ask them to help in this time of need so that they would not have to euthanize any healthy cats. So far, the adoption event has seen great success and many cats have found homes, opening up cages for new intake.

            Sincerely,
            Melissa Miller
            New Media Coordinator

      • del_jake

        If you look at Best Friends 2011 financial statement on Guidestar, you’ll see that they spent $19,860,444 on animal care activities and noted that there are about 1700 animals being cared for at any given time. That amounts to $11,682 per animal. No average shelter that they are selling this “No-Kill” concept to receives anywhere near that in donations or contractual funds. Shouldn’t the objective be to promote realistic solutions like targeted spay neuter and adoption promotion, rather than focusing on a quota system that doesn’t take into account the fact that every community has different issues, needs, and most of all every community has different resources available.

        Comparing Best Friends to PETA isn’t comparing apples to apples. Whether PETA handles euthanasia for low income individuals or animals involved in a cruelty case, their mission is much different than Best Friends. How many of the cruelty cases that PETA handled was Best Friends also involved in? I don’t expect Best Friends to be because investigating cruelty is not their mission, but running a sanctuary is not PETA’s either.

        • Kitty

          Then PETA should stop taking animals in PERIOD!

          • http://burningbird.net Shelley Powers

            Then you think it would be better that dying animals be dumped to die in pain? Or do you prefer that they be killed in gas chambers? Perhaps starve to death is more your style?

            Do you care about the quality of life or only the quantity?

          • Anonymous

            This is not an either/or scenario.

          • Anonymous

            We get it, you like to see animals suffer and then die.

          • Anonymous

            No, actually you don’t “get it”. I said no such thing nor have I implied any such thing. What you do is lie and put words in my mouth. Exactly the same way you somehow managed to put “tortured animals” in my mouth. Stop acting like a child having a temper tantrum, Julieveggie. If you are unable to respond to my comments as an adult and use logic and sound reasoning to defend your position then I will not waste my time responding to you. Do you think you are capable of responding like an adult? Or does someone need a time out or a nap?

          • Susan Willard

            Great question for the teabaggers of the animal activist movement. Reminds me of the anti-choice movement. All kidding aside, Winograd’s NK uses the same language and tactics as the neo-cons and tea party.

        • Susan Willard

          How many millions did BF spend on rehabbing somewhat unsuccessfully the Vick dogs? Yet Winograd and followers expect overwhelmed and underfunded shelters to do what BF did using millions of dollars. Reinforced kennels, room for one dog to run? Ridiculous. My shelter has to beg for blankets, beds and paper towels.

          • Anonymous

            Hi Susan,

            We’re not sure what your definition is of “somewhat unsuccessfully” rehabbing the Vicktory dogs, but we’d certainly disagree that the dogs’ journey with us has been anything but successful. In January 2008, we took in 22 of the hardest cases that were rescued from Bad Newz Kennels. Since then, 11 of those dogs have been adopted into wonderful, loving homes, with others waiting in the wings as soon as they pass their Canine Good Citizen test. You can read more about the achievements these dogs have achieved here: http://bestfriends.org/News-And-Features/News/Good-Newz/. (Note, since the story was published, Vicktory Dog Layla was adopted.)

            Dogs rescued from fighting rings used to be euthanized after all evidence was gathered. The Vicktory dogs changed the precedent for all dogs in these types of cases moving forward, leaving a legacy of hope and a fair chance to be evaluated as an individual dog for all those who follow in their path. While you may consider this unsuccessful, we’d view this as a pretty big victory for all pit bull type dogs. The perception of pit bull type dogs (and particularly dogs rescued from fighting rings) has been impacted tremendously with this high profile case, showing hundreds of thousands of Americans how much these dogs just want to be a part of a loving family. This isn’t just about the Vicktory dogs — it’s about all pit bull type dogs that need to break through barriers and discrimination so that they can get back to being America’s beloved breed.

            Sincerely,
            Melissa Miller

      • sittingbulll

        Best Friends does an amazing job, but they do not take in every animal that needs assistance. Just what they have room for. What about all of the others?

    • Citizen Group

      “How are other shelters supposed to compete with that?” If you mean, how are other organizations supposed to copy the successful organizations who are saving lives instead of killing, I would say they would do it by copying the same successful steps!

      There are, at writing, 162 (and counting) communities documented independently that report saving 90% or more of shelter animals. These are animals leaving by the front door instead of our the back in body bags or garbage cans.

      If an organization WANTS to save more lives, they copy communities that are saving more lives and ask experts from those communities for help. If they want to keep killing, they keep doing the same things they’ve always done and they bash No Kill and the No Kill Equation.

      It’s really appalling for PETA to say things like “a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy” and Newkirk admit in a TV interview that they themselves kill healthy, perfect, adoptable animals “if they can’t find a home for them”. If a dog is equivalent to a boy in their eyes, they obviously don’t have much respect for human lives either. They are an immoral, despicable organization that does not at this time deserve public support or even the lawful designation as a “shelter” or a charity.

      • sittingbulll

        162 shelters is a gross misrepresentation. The NKE is faulty and not sustainable, but other programs are working successfully. And that despicable organization? They extend rescue efforts into all states. I transported 6 animals ( others went to another facility) for them this week alone in my state at their request. This happens every day all over the US. I’ve been a proud supporter of PeTA and their rescue/animal welfare efforts for 30 years. Without them animal welfare would not have progressed to where it is today.

        • Kitty

          Great! Now convince them to stop taking in cats and dogs to euthanize.

          • sittingbulll

            Sure. Right after you provide an alternate for the owner requested euthanasia they provide.

      • Kitty

        They are not a shelter by any means. They’re a slaughterhouse for cats and dogs. With all the controversy you would think they’d wise up and stop the slaughter. Close their slaughterhouse.

        • Anonymous

          PeTA has 3 million members that think they are effective for raising awareness about animal cruelty and making a positive change for animals. Only a few pitiful fall for the lies created by Rick Berman who represents breeders’ interest and big corporation that exploit animals for profit.

      • Julieveggie

        That list includes shelters that turn away animals.
        In Ryan Clinton’s backyard where he says the no-kill equation is a success at his open admission shelter ‘Austin Pets Alive’ is not ture and on top of that he denies pet overpopulation: The shelters are so crowded with homeless cats it is closed for intake. This includes: The Austin Animal Center has almost 600 felines, Austin Pets Alive has close to 900, and the Austin Humane Society has more than 300.Now the cats will be abandon on the streets and will either multiply if they are not altered or end up suffering and dying a horrible death. I suggest that all those cats be delivered to Clinton’s doorstep. After all, he believes there is a home for all, let him be the one to find those homes he claims are available.

      • Julieveggie

        Are there enough homes for the 70 million strays in America that are fending for themselves?

        • Anonymous

          feral cats have the right to live as much as any other animal living outdoors.
          Look up Alley Cat Allies for more information regarding TNR.

          • Julieveggie

            The 70 million animals are not all ferals they are tamed cats and tamed dogs forced to fend for themselves on the streets and deserve to be placed in a loving home.

          • Anonymous

            No Kill aims to find homes for every single adoptable animal. This has been acknowledged numerous times already so why do you keep asking the same questions? You might not like the answers you are receiving but they are not about to change simply because you keep repeating yourself.

          • Anonymous

            Because they kept deleting my questions. And my question has not been answered. Is there enough homes for the 70 million strays? Yes some of the are feral but many are not. My question is a yes or no answer?

          • Anonymous

            Before I answer, “yes or no”, please provide me with the proof to back up your claim that 70 million strays exist and then please tell me how many are feral vs. “tamed”. I can’t answer the question unless I am provided with the proof that this claim is indeed rooted in reality and not your imagination.

          • Julieveggie

            You have not proved anything except you think you can take the moral high ground and munch on tortured animals and buy from breeders instead adopting the hardest to place animals middle aged cats.

          • Anonymous

            Dear Julieveggie, please calm down and READ the comment that I made very s-l-o-w-l-y. I have never stated that I have “proved” anything. I asked YOU to provide ME with proof of your claim that 70 million homeless dogs and cats are roaming around our streets. And how, pray tell, do you know that I munch on “tortured animals” anyway? Do you have a hidden camera somewhere in my home? You are just being silly. And if you are going to continue to act like a silly child instead of having an actual adult discussion then I will no longer engage you.

          • Anon

            Please provide actual proof that there ARE 70 million STRAYS in the US. Strays and Feral’s are NOT the same thing. We can’t re-home what we haven’t caught yet, now can we? So we need to focus on the ones we can account for in our shelter systems and TNR programs first. There is documented evidence that feral’s can live as long as house cats and live a quality life, just like any other WILD animal. Feral’s are WILD and have no business clogging up our shelter systems unless it is for TNR purposes or because they need medical care. The end-goal is population control, not extinction. Like it or not cats have carved out themselves a nitch in our eco-system. Without them, we would be over run with vermin.

          • Anonymous

            I’m done doing your homework for you. There is lots of information on line about this. Even Cesar Millian says there are 10 million stray dogs & cats.

          • Anonymous

            Wait, 10 million or 70 million??? That’s a fairly large discrepancy. Julieveggie, would you care to explain? Is that a typo, or are you now changing your claim and downgrading the number that you originally claimed by 60 million?

            And you have done absolutely nothing requested of you and certainly not done anyone’s “homework” so please stop acting like a child.

            You don’t think that you can simply throw out absurdly large numbers and expect that you wont be asked to provide proof to back them up, do you?

          • Julieveggie

            I would link you to the webpages where I’m finding the info but this blog doesn’t allow links. I would like the moderator to remove your comment because you are demeaning me by calling me a child.

          • Anon

            10 million, 70 million, 100 million, it all adds up to one
            simple fact… Well, ok… 2 simple facts. One, you, nor anyone else can prove
            how many strays or ferals there are in a single state, let alone the entire
            country. It’s all guesswork. And two, you can’t seem to make up your mind concerning
            how many strays there are.

            You haven’t done any research for me and frankly I don’t
            need some PeTAbot pretending they have done my research for me. I am more than
            capable of doing my own research thanks. I’ve been an advocate for animals for
            around 40 years now. I even use to be a PeTAbot just like you, before I
            realized that PeTA is little more than a hypocritical, animal killing, deceiving,
            money grabbing, publicity hogging, cesspool of people who don’t love animals…
            they just hate people.

            It’s a shame when a supposed animal lover could defend the
            lives of frogs in a classroom but will turn around and defend the killing of a
            cat or dog in a shelter. Atleast killing the frog serves a purpose. Killing
            these cats and dogs serves nothing and no one… accept lazy shelter workers and serial
            animal murderers like PeTA. And PeTA are murderers. They have said so
            themselves. “A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy.” With that logic killing a dog
            is the EXACT same thing as killing a human child.

            Now please, don’t do me any favors by doing my research for
            me. Do some real research (with proven facts and all that) for yourself.

          • Anon

            Because we all know that Cesar Millian personally went out and did a head count of the supposed 100million strays? Right? He did? Didn’t he?

          • Daniellie

            If he is so concerned about all the stray animals why did he get Junior and Mr. President from a breeder?

          • Anonymous

            I happen to agree with you and would like to clarify that you are an entirely different person than I am.

          • Anonymous

            For arguments sake, assume there are 70 million. Now what is your answer?

          • Anonymous

            No kill is not solving the problem just yet. Until they figure out how, what would you have us do with all of the homeless animals? Do you have homes for them?

          • Anonymous

            Clearly there are enough homes for them all. It’s a big country and millions of people are looking to adopt a companion animal into their home at any given time. This is not a question of “not enough homes” it’s a question of our animal control and shelter facilities not putting forth the effort to find them all homes. May I ask you, what is PETA’s preferred solution to the “problem” you refer to? Please, I’m really interested in hearing how PETA plans to solve the “overpopulation” problem. Assuming such a thing exists, because judging by the numbers of homes provided by the census bureau, I believe there are indeed enough homes.

          • Anonymous

            There are not enough people wanting to adopt cats and pit bull mixes that make up most of the animals at shelters.

          • Anonymous

            And how have you arrived at your conclusion, Julieveggie? Please provide me with the SOURCE of this alleged “fact”. Or is this simply your opinion? If this is simply your opinion, you are entitled to it, but you should clarify that you are voicing your opinion instead of presenting your opinion as fact. This is crucial to the discussion. Facts are something that can be backed up with incontrovertible evidence, opinions do not need facts to back them up. Please clarify if it is your opinion that there are not enough homes for these animals. Or, if you are making the claim that this is a fact, please provide the evidence to back up your claim.

          • Anonymous

            Why is this comment keep getting deleted! It’s FAIR!: Austin Animal Center/ Austin Pets Alive had to stop intaking cats because both shelters are full and had to start killing animals for space.

          • Anonymous

            Maybe because you are diverting the subject to something entirely off topic? You were asked point blank to provide us with the source to back up your claims but instead you keep changing the subject to Austin Pets Alive. Do you understand the difference? It is very difficult to have an adult conversation with someone who refuses to answer the question posed to her and insists on hijacking the discussion with diversions. If you are incapable of answering the question, you should simply reply, “I don’t have an answer to your question” or ” I don’t have a source to back up my claims”. At least that would be honest.

          • Julieveggie

            My comment was not off topic. It was proof that no-kill shelters kill for space too.

          • Anonymous

            And Austin is working out so very well, isn’t it?

          • Terri

            Same answer to you sittingbull that Melissa gave to julieveggie: Actually, Julie, that is not correct and not the full picture. The Austin Animal Center, which is the city’s open admission shelter, along with its two biggest rescue partners, Austin Pets Alive! and the Austin Humane Society, teamed up this weekend to host a joint adoption event for cats. The three organizations were seeing quite a few cats come in and simply needed to make space for intake. They reached out to the public to ask them to help in this time of need so that they would not have to euthanize any healthy cats. So far, the adoption event has seen great success and many cats have found homes, opening up cages for new intake.

            Sincerely,
            Melissa Miller
            New Media Coordinator

          • Julieveggie

            Austin Animal Center on facebook posted a press release that they are no longer in taking cats until they have room.

          • Julieveggie

            When I google about Houston having a million strays on the street a lot came up. I did your homework for you ‘Unity for a solution houston’

          • Anonymous

            When something is popular everyone goes out and gets one and sometimes it on backorder because the demand is so high. The demand for people wanting to adopt middle age cats and pit bull type dogs isn’t there or they would be getting adopted.

          • Anonymous

            Again, is this your opinion? Because the number of households that exist far exceeds the number of homeless animals we have. It sounds more like a matter of marketing the animals better and if animals are important to you , one would think that their lives are worth putting forth the effort it takes to find them loving homes. Killing them is the cowardly, lazy way to deal with the problem, don’t you think?

          • Anonymous

            So do you think Austin Animal Center is lazy? The ad council did a false & misleading study states 17 million people want to acquire a pet, doesn’t mean people necessarily want to adopt their pet from a shelter. You cannot credibly equate ‘considering acquiring a pet’ with actual results. And more importantly, you certainly cannot apply those numbers to animals in shelters. You would need to know a) the approximate conversion of those ‘considering’ that turn into actual pet owners, b) where people get animals (i.e. breeder, pet store, friend, shelter or other).

          • Anonymous

            The same responses could be used when replying to your claim that, “not enough homes exist” for these animals. You have absolutely no proof of any of your claims – yet you continue to respond with the canned response that there is “not enough homes”. I can at least prove that there are millions of households that could be potential homes for these animals in question (reference US Census for verification).

            So again, it seems to be a matter of will and marketing – we must have the will to find these homeless animals loving homes vs. the easy and convenient way to deal with the problem, by killing them all. You prefer to kill them, right Julieveggie? If the choices are to try very hard to find them all homes or to kill them quickly and conveniently, you prefer the latter, right? Please explain which is more preferable to you, Julieveggie? And then tell us why? Thanks

          • Susan Willard

            Come on you hold out. You’re killing adoptable dogs and cats by refusing to place them in those homes you and Winograd know exist.

          • Anonymous

            Is this how adults act when they debate a subject? Please, Susan Willard, do you have something meaningful to add to the discussion or do you just want to join Julieveggie in acting like a child?

          • sittingbulll

            Nope. Send us your address. Since you’ve got the solution, we can send you as many pits as you’d like.

          • Anonymous

            See my reply to you above. I prefer you do not have any of my personal information for safety reasons.

          • sittingbulll

            Then share the name of your no kill shelter? We could use the help.

          • Anonymous

            The source of this fact is at every shelter. If there were enough homes, there would be no animals at the shelters. There are enough people but not everyone wants an animal. Not everyone wants a pit or a mixed breed or a cat. Many of the people who already have animals are dumping them at shelters. Too many animals, no homes for them, no one wants them, current owners won’t keep them, people allow them to breed, strays and ferals… and no room at shelters. Where do you want them to go? Now – not someday in the future – right now. All of them. Do you have room for them? A place for them to go? Can you afford to house, care for, feed, and provide medical care for them all – right now? Today? Our shelters cannot. Tell us where to put them today, tomorrow, next week, next month. We would all live to hear your immediate solution.

          • Anonymous

            And I am stating that the fact that shelters kill these animals does not prove there are not enough homes for them all. When so many of these “shelters” do not even put forth a miniscule effort (i.e. PETA) to find these animals homes you can not seriously pretend that they even want to find these animals homes. I can just as easily claim that these shelters kill for convenience. They simply cant be bothered to actually take care of the animals and to work with the public and other rescue groups to market the animals.

            My immediate solution is to implement the NKE. And if more facilities and workers are needed to provide temporary shelter for the animals in question then more facilities should be built and more workers hired. But most likely, there would be more than enough people willing to volunteer to care for these animals. Are you going to deny that the public loves dogs and cats? And that there would be enough people willing to volunteer their time and more to help save them all?

          • Anonymous

            Well. That’s just ducky. Assuming the NKE works (it’s flawed), you still haven’t answered the question about what to do with the animals today. Now. Next month. Some people love animals. A lot of people dont. Not enough people love animals. Not enough want them. Lets build more shelters and hire more workers. Lets just warehouse all of the animals. Are you going to pay for it? Most cities won’t. Many have no shelters at all. You are not living in the real world. Take yourself down to your city kill shelter and volunteer. Look at their budget. Then tell me where all this money will come from. Wake up.

          • Anonymous

            Considering the huge number of dollars the animal welfare organizations are raking in each and every year I say there is indeed enough money to achieve a No Kill Nation. My city shelter is No Kill. It has been for several years. And this was achieved without big budgets or pomp and circumstance. It was achieved because of the sheer will and dedication of the animal lovers and a sympathetic animal control officer. It also has been sustained for many years, again with very little funding. Why should any other city shelter be any different? Please explain.

          • sittingbulll

            Really? Which city is yours? What is their intake rate? What is their annual budget? Do they transport animals to other shelters/cities//states? Please share so we can compare stats and verify.

          • Anonymous

            No offense, but frankly I do not care to share any identifying information with you as I have seen some serious harassment coming from PETA members when they discover a person’s private information. I’ve witnessed shameful personal attacks and campaigns to destroy people’s lives coming from your camp. Frankly, this is the biggest reason I do not like PETA. The behavior I’ve witnessed from their followers is abysmal and abhorrent and that is putting it mildly.

          • Anonymous

            Not even a city? If your posts are true, certainly the city wont hurt. Id think you would be proud to share. You demand verification from PETA and us, but won’t post any of your own. My city is Jacksonville, FL. I’ve nothing to hide – our city is wonderful! Until you verify any of your info, we will consider it just as fictional as you consider Peta’s info. Shame, that.

          • Anonymous

            The verification that I have requested would not require that you or anyone else provide me with identifying personal information.

            I have requested proof to back up the claims that “70 million homeless animals” exist. Providing the proof to back up this number would not require any personal information to be disclosed. The same goes with the request to provide “proof” of all the wonderful things you claim that PETA does for animals. Providing me with such proof does not require you to disclose your personal information.

            Nobody here should be required to disclose personal information to discuss the subject matter.

            Do you understand the difference?

          • sittingbulll

            You are diverting again. I understand that the name of your city or the shelter you are referring to is not personal information. I asked you to verify your statements. You cannot or will not. I did not provide the 70 million number. Proof of overpopulation is in every shelter and community in the US. No sane person will dispute this. If there were no overpopulation, regardless of the number – 10million, 70 million -the shelters would be empty and we would not be having this conversation. There are not enough homes for all of the animals. I’ve asked you to back up your statements. If you can’t/won’t then we will have to assume they are false, just as you assume the 70 million number is false without documentation.

          • Terri

            And yet, if overpop exists then why has euthanasia been steadily decreasing over the years?

          • Anonymous

            And yet, if there is no overpopulation, why are shelters still overflowing, Craig’s list full of free pet ads, streets still full of ferals and strays, and euthanasia still necessary? Because overpopulation is very real.

          • Anonymous

            When all the homeless, unwanted animals have homes then there will be no overpopulation. Not until then.

          • Anonymous

            Thank-you. Common sense WINS!

          • Anonymous

            There you go acting like a child again. So now you declare yourself a “winner” simply because you say so? Grow up littl Julieveggie. I’m sorry I wasted my whole day trying to have a grown up discussion with a stubborn brat.

          • Susan Willard

            Terri you can thank PETA , the HSUS and the ASPCA for that. Even though they’re the axis of evil among Winogradians they were the groups that changed animal pounds into shelters with adoption hours, public access and raised public awareness to the current level.

          • Anonymous

            What are you talking about? First of all, there is a huge difference between 10 million homeless animals and 70 million homeless animals . In fact, there is a 60 million animal difference. Without an actual verifiable NUMBER of homeless animals there is simply no way to properly address the problem and to find an adequate solution.

            The latest stats from the US Census Bureau estimates the current population to be around, 313,914,040.

            Are you honestly going to deny that there are more than enough homes to accommodate the 3-4 million animals that are currently killed in our shelter system?

            I must leave you now as my neighbor has just brought me two abandoned kittens that he found. I will take care of them and they will receive all of the medical care, shelter and food they require until I can find them proper homes.

            And I will not ask for help from PETA as I know I would not receive any. Good day.

          • Anonymous

            I forgot a zero: Even Cesar Millian says there are 100 million stray dogs & cats.

          • Anonymous

            Where did he get the figure? Saying that “Cesar Millan said it” isn’t a factual source. And, if your going to use him as a source you should spell his name right.

          • Anonymous

            Again, I did not provide either of those numbers. You are changing the subject from my post requesting proof of your claims. And yes, I am saying there are not enough homes. Again, not everyone likes animals, wants a pet, or wants the type of animal that is in the shelter. You’ve got homes for he ones that will be euthanized tomorrow or next week? Lets see them. Make it happen. Oh, and be prepared to back up your claims if you insist others do the same. Fair is fair.

          • Anonymous

            I forgot to add a 0. Even Cesar Millian says there are 100 million stray dogs & cats.

          • Susan Willard

            Anonymous won’t share that info because then it would be very easy to see that she/he is living in Wino fantasyland. We would learn that his/ her no kill shelter limits admission, turns animals away and is costing the taxpayers millions more every year.

          • Anonymous

            I wont tell you the info because I don’t want people like you or Julie to know where I live. And I believe I have made the wisest choice judging by the tone of your comments.

            I can adequately still argue my position without referring to my community or personal experience. Can you? I doubt it.

          • sittingbulll

            My city has a huge program – very successful. One of the best in the country (maybe the best). Massive intake. Huge foster program. Huge volunteer and fundraising programs. TNR supported by the city and community. Out city shelter budget was cut last year. In spite of their success they are looking at a 20% budget cut again this year. Got some money you can send us? Or maybe you can find all of the small towns who have no shelters at all? And when you’re done fixing this financial crisis, you can have a crack at the national debt.

          • Anonymous

            Sadly, I do not have the money but PETA does. Why don’t you ask them?

          • sittingbulll

            PETA is helping. You’ve still not answered the question about what to do today.

          • Anonymous

            Yes, I did answer in detail. Look again.

          • sittingbulll

            No, there is no answer for what to do with animals today.

          • Susan Willard

            Telling outright lies about an organization such as PETA is why people don’t trust Winograd’s fake reform movement. If one has to lie to hurt other organizations then your movement is rotten to the core. PETA bears the costs and transports adoptable animals to local shelters for adoption.

          • Anonymous

            Please list any “outright lies” I have told. I will be waiting to see this list.

          • Susan Willard

            You said “put forth a miniscule effort (i.e. PETA) to find these animals homes you can not seriously pretend that they even want to find these animals homes’. PETA puts for a lot of effort and costs to find and transport adoptable animals to area shelters.

          • Anonymous

            Your statement is not backed up by the facts, whereas, mine is backed up by the VDAC fact sheet that PETA itself submits every year. Do I need to post what the most recent figures state?

          • Susan Willard

            So why aren’t you and Winograd out there putting those homeless animals in those ready and willing homes? I keep hearing that there’s enough homes. Prove it. Put them in those homes. If you and Winograd are holding out on your list of willing homes then you’re being cruel to tens of millions of animals.

    • Anonymous

      “It’s time to get honest, Best Friends.”

      Please ask your friends at PETA the same question. If PETA were at least honest about their intentions and would come right out and admit publicly that they wish to end pet ownership all together, then maybe we wouldn’t be having the same argument day in and day out. Why doesn’t PETA just publicly acknowledge how they feel about cats and dogs living with humans? To the casual observer it would appear that PETA wants to save cats and dogs and that is exactly what PETA wants them to believe so they can continue raking in the big bucks. That is pretty “dishonest” I would say.

  • Anonymous

    It is very easy for limited admission shelters to criticize PeTA, isn’t it? This article is very disappointing. Certainly not what I would expect from Best Friends.

    • CJ O

      What is limited about taking in 23,000 animals and saving more than 90%!! PETA seems to be “limited” in admission if you want to go by pure numbers! Why not do a little research into the communities that are No Kill and you will see they are OPEN ADMISSION.. I’m sure there are limited admission also.. But limited in collection with the OPEN admission municiple shelters help build a community!

      • sittingbulll

        A limited Admission shelter does not accept every animal presented, when it is presented, regardless of where the animal originates from. (They also take cats…). For example, Best Friends is a limited admission facility. PeTA is not a shelter. The information published about the ‘NK communities” is extremely slanted to say the least. A better word would be misleading. Call the shelters – all of them – yourself and verify what is truly going on in those communities. You will find that most are not open admission. (no caps necessary). It is not as represented. When you’ve called and verified the data, you will understand.

        • CJ O

          I volunteer for an organization that has made our open admission shelter No Kill so you can’t tell me it doesn’t happen or can’t happen. It is happening I am part of it and we have a 98% LIVE release! Maybe you should check your facts!

          • sittingbulll

            I have checked. Clearly you have a reading comprehension problem. I did not say it could not happen. Re-read the posts above – maybe someone can help you. I notice you didn’t mention the name of your shelter so it could be verified. If it truly is no kill, share with all of us. I’m sure everyone would love to see a true open admission, no kill shelter in action. Waiting anxiously….

          • CJ O

            Yes resort to insulting as most kill apologist do! I do not have a reading problem! I comprehended just fine.. But yes people say it can’t happen even if you didn’t thank you. The shelter is the Maryville City Shelter on 426 Home Ave in Maryville TN. They cover both Maryville and Alcoa cities. And work in conjunction with the Blount County Humane Society!

          • Anonymous

            You know what happens when you make assumptions, don’t you? I apologize if you’re insulted that I pointed out your mistake, but you did not read what I said. If we haven’t gotten to your shelters yet, I am sure they are on the list. I will check the statistics and policies personally. Going back to the original topic, please re-read my original post. ‘Most’ does not mean ‘all’. I am not ‘people’, I am one person. My comment about the list of NK shelters still stands, as does the fact that PeTA is not a shelter. Thank you for your work at your local shelter. It is wonderful that you are able to help the animals. I know they are grateful.

          • Kitty

            Are you saying people take their pets to PETA to have them euthanized? That they’re aware PETS is not a shelter but a slaughterhouse for cats and dogs?

          • Anonymous

            Kitty, PeTA isn’t a “shelter for homing pets. If someone brings an animal to be rehomed, PETA refers them to the local high-adoption facility in their community, Virgina Beach SPCA. PETA never intakes those animals so they are not counted as part of the statistics. Nearly every animal PeTA receives is an owner-surrendered animal for the purpose of humane, medical euthanasia because the animals is injured, sick, or dying. PETA makes these people sign a waiver stating they know the animal will be euthanized. In most cases, these are low income people with sick pets who cannot afford to take their pet to a veterinarian. PETA allows these people to be with their pets and provides this service for free. In fact, the state of Virginia requires PeTA (and all animal reporting facilities) to keep both animal and owner information on file for a period of two years, during which time, anyone who has a complaint regarding the handling of their animal can ask for an investigation. Now, if PeTA was really duping unsuspecting people into believing their pet will be offered for adoption, where are all of the complaints?

          • Anonymous

            Can’t you PETA bots and Ingrid Newkirk gather yourselves together and come up with one coherent explanation (and stick to it) that would explain what exactly PETA’s Norfolk facility is? Last I heard from Ingrid, she claims they have a shelter.

          • Anonymous

            We have tried to explain to you many times you just can’t wrap your head around it.The state of Virginia list PETA as a shelter for its physical structure but it’s NOT license as a shelter.

          • Anonymous

            I didn’t say anything about the State of Virginia. I said that Ingrid Newkirk recently wrote a blog claiming that PETA’s Norfolk facility does indeed operate as a shelter. Can you wrap your head around that? Please explain to everyone here why you contradict one another? Doesn’t Ingrid Newkirk know if her own organization is a shelter or not?

          • Terri

            “Nearly every animal PeTA receives is an owner-surrendered animal for the purpose of humane, medical euthanasia because the animals is injured, sick, or dying.” PeTA has refused to provide ANY proof of this.

          • Julieveggie

            Please name the shelter that you are talking about?

    • Judith Lautner

      If you read the article you’d see it does not apply simply to “limited admission” shelters. It applies to a whole community, including the public pound.

      • Anonymous

        I read the article. If you will read my post, you will see that it is a reply to the post above it.

  • RRuin

    SO, PETA will bash someone who eats a hamburger but thinks killing pets is okay? They are nuts.

    • Kitty

      That’s right. Save the cows and pigs and slaughter momma cats with their babies, healthy puppies, pet rabbits…. give to your local Rescues and no-kill shelters. Don’t send PETA a penny.

    • Julieveggie

      I hope you’re VEGAN since you’re against killing of animals –over 99% of cruelty to animals in the United States occurs at the hands of the meat, dairy, and egg industries – which confine, torture, mutilate, and slaughter over 9 billion animals each year.

    • Anonymous

      YES and YES. PETA apparently thinks they are of such a superior intellect that they can make the rules . Everyone must abide by these rules, except, of course, PETA. I think that is called, “hypocrisy”.

    • Anonymous

      Did you know over 99% of cruelty to animals in the United States occurs at the hands of the meat, dairy, and egg industries – which confine, torture, mutilate, and slaughter over 9 billion animals each year

    • Anonymous

      I do not understand why this keep getting deleted it’s a fair reponse to RRuin: Did you know over 99% of cruelty to animals in the United States occurs at the hands of the meat, dairy, and egg industries – which confine, torture, mutilate, and slaughter over 9 billion animals each year

      • Anonymous

        The treatment of animals raised for human consumption is important yet it has nothing to do with the subject being discussed here.

        • Anonymous

          Well Rubin is the one that brought the subject up. The moderator keeps deleting my comment in response to it. Maybe the moderator should delete Rubin’s comment since it’s off topic.

          • Anonymous

            It is not “off topic” to point out PETA’s hypocrisy. That is precisely the topic being discussed here.

          • Anonymous

            Well I’m doing the same thing pointing out the hypocrisy of people that eat animals and are for no-kill.

          • sittingbulll

            Very true

  • Lara

    Unfortunately, San Francisco is no longer no-kill. However, it is because of the wonderful Maddie’s Fund that I was able to adopt my little girl when she was 15 years old. She is now 17 and as happy as a clam. Thank you for this article. PETA is a confusing organisation for me, but I am glad they are at the table, if only to stimulate conversation about issues that might not otherwise reach the attention of Joe Public.

  • Grace

    I work at a cage free no-kill cat shelter in Chicago, it’s an amazing place! I don’t fully agree with the end part of number 2 we have a whole room mostly full of cats that are pretty aggressive towards people that will never get adopted, but we still provide them with a safe place to be instead of putting them down, one of them we are able to pet after a year of her being pretty aggressive towards us.

    • MelissaLMiller

      Thanks for your input, Grace! Behavior is certainly subjective and dependent upon whether or not there are safe and humane management options, which it sounds like your shelter has. In some cases, though, there can be situations where the animals are too dangerously aggressive to be safely adopted out to the public. While we advocate for no-kill, we also advocate for safe and humane communities and understand that there are some cases where we may not be able to save every single animal. Hope this helps to clarify that second point!

      Best,
      Melissa Miller
      New Media Coordinator